Talking To Saint Low.
Saint Low
Heartfelt is the word
"I hope I'll be able to bring my band on tour, because I don't like to play
solo at all", Saint Low's Mary Lorson had told me in an interview this summer.
Yet she knew back then already that chances were slim that her group's
self-titled debut album (on Cooking Vinyl in Europe and Thirsty Ear in the
States) would sell well enough to justify to "big" tour. Obviously that's not
because the album's no good. It's an excellent singer/songwriter record,
somewhat sparse/experimental in parts, but overflowing with passion
throughout. It was also the first chance for Mary to shine as a songwriter. In
her other band Madder Rose, she mostly sang the songs written by Billy Coté,
because "it's his band", as the she had explained in an interview with Luna
Kafé last year. It was also a chance for her to earn some money with her
talent as a songwriter and performer rather than working in a restaurant or as
a substitute teacher to make ends meet.
When plans were made for a Saint Low tour through Europe and the UK, the
initial idea was to put Mary and her guitar on a train and make it a solo tour
neverthless. A bit too "solo" for Saint Mary's liking in fact, who wanted to
turn some solo shows in London this summer into duo gigs by inviting english
friend Simon Arpin to play guitar for her. When Simon joined the American
"alternative country" collective Willard Grant Conspiracy for their six-week
long European jaunt this fall, plans quickly were made to incorprate Mary into
the package as well. As the opening act as and the WGC's backup singer. For
five dates in Germany, the group was even joined by Walkabout Chris Eckman and
the shows proved to be a great little package indeed. Especially since various
members of the Willards helped out during Mary's opening set already, giving
the evening something of a revue style performance. The singer from the
Ithaca, NY area started her set with a few tunes at the keyboard, including a
stunning stripped down Walk On By but it was when she picked up the guitar to
do maybe her best song, Crash, that you got reminded why Madder Rose were such
a great live band in the first place. Simply because Mary seems to be the
embodiment of the coolest rock star imaginable. It's just so much fun to see
her on stage! The way she sings with more passion than anybody else, the way
she seems to re-live every single line from her songs again while she sings
them, the way she plays guitar and moves about the stage, often almost
kneeling in front of her guitar amp - if she'd drink vodka instead of mineral
water, she'd be the total rock n roll heroine. She's pretty much all your
favorite female singers rolled into one. And she's not only an amazing
performer, she also has the songs to match!
"I love the trio, the guitar, the violin and me [on keyboards]", she said of
the show when I met her before the gig in Bochum, Germany. And the trio sounds
so good indeed. Imagine Joni Mitchell with some Lisa Germano thrown in for
good measure and you're getting close. With some of the songs, the stripped
down arrangements work even better than on the album and you never think that
they are are not expressed in the best possible way.
Also, Mary's role in the WGC on this tour - 40+ shows, virtually without ANY
days off - shouldn't be under-estimated. Apart from bringing a lot of smiles
to the - on previous tours - rather serious WGC show, she also did a great job
as their backup singer. That term is somewhat misleading as well, because Mary
wasn't a backup singer in the Diana Ross & The Supremes / The Ikettes kinda
way (i.e. cute singer hidden at the side of the stage, destined to sing a few
"o-o-h-s" every third song), she was singing what probably could be described
as "shared lead vocal" on many of the songs, the same way Nicolette Larson did
for Neil Young back in the day.
"It's good to be part of a group", she said by now knowing that there
virtually no chance that she'll ever be able to take the Saint Low line up
featured on the record - Zaun Marshburn on drums, Joe Myer on violin, Michael
Stark on piano, Stahl Caso on bass and Jennie Stearns on backing vocals - on
the road. But then again you never know what happens and if there's somebody
who deserves just a little more success, it's definitely Mary Lorson. So
here's what Mary had to say about...
... the Willard Grant Conspiracy:
"I'd never heard of them before I met them when I supported them in London
this summer, but I'd heard great things about them . I'm really happy to play
with them, because they are musicians in a style that the people in Madder
Rose were just not at all into. As great as they are, I was always a little
more interested in that kind of thing than they were and they really resisted
having anything like that kinda flavor in our stuff.
... being on touring:
"I'm basically doing two shows every night... singing up to three hours every
day. Since we've all toured tons, we all have been through stretches like
this. The first Madder Rose tour started as five weeks, turned into nine weeks
and I think we maybe had three days off during the whole time, so we all know
how to do it. Actually I think there is something good about playing every
single night without any off days, because it kinda keeps you disciplined and
right now, if we had a day off, I'd go "Hmmm, what I'm gonna do now?' at 9
o'clock! That's what usually happens when you get home from the road as well.
You do what you can. Some bands can afford to take every third day off, but
most bands I know, can't. In the end it all adds to the thrill, the
"kamikaze-we-can-do-it'-thing' (laughs)."
... making new plans quickly:
"I was supposed to do a theater tour with M. Doughty (Soul Coughing) and Miles
Hunt from The Wonder Stuff in England next week, but that got cancelled just a
few days ago, so I now I got a whole new plan. I'm staying with Willard Grant
through their gig in Brighton and then I'm doing eight dates with Kurt Wagner
[from Lambchop], so it's gonna be a different thing, but it's still gonna be
in the UK and it's still gonna be theaters and it's just me solo opening up
for him, solo."
... songwriting:
"When I put my own music together, I really have this weird mishmash of things
that I'm trying to express, I think it's kinda good when you can't pick out
one or another. That's what I'm going for, I'm trying to make it pretty mixed
up, without subconsciously going like: "Hey, I'm doing this person now...'"
I'm sure playing with the Willard Grant Conspiracy will be an inspiration in
ways that I haven't thought of yet. I think when I find things influencial to
me it's not before I start writing, it's always when I'm in the thick of it...
you try five things and after you picked the one you like, you think: "Ah,
maybe it's a little like this..." I have a little writing tape going all the
time, so if i'm not humming into it or playing into it, I'm listening to it. I
started this trip with two new songs that I'm playing [including a beautiful
piano tune, apparently called Your Lament which was the opener in Bochum -
author's note] and four that I had the music and the melody for but not the
words. It's been beautiful though to have this keyboard with us on the road,
because I do most of my writing on it these days and usually I don't have one
on tour. The songwriting process is always different. It's like a ride
(laughs)."
... artwork (Madder Rose's "Panic On" in particular) *
"Oh my goodness, look at that! The ugliest record cover ever! There's a story
to it as well... we made a cover, that we loved. Our A&R guy was a great guy and
he never liked to say 'no' to us, but he hated it. So they were going into
production, we were doing all the layout, the whole thing... and he wouldn't come
out rejecting it, he just said: 'Why don't you try other things?' Finally, two days
before it was due, he said: 'Actually, I'm gonna tell you, I'm rejecting it.' So we
had two days to come up with something and there were arguments and stress and all
this stuff going on... in the end they chose a picture of me that I would never have
chosen. I look as if I'm about to cry. It's awful. Pretty good record though, it might
be my favorite of our records."
... future plans:
"I don't have any plans. I was so lucky, because in the last year a lot of
things have happened. People liked my record, but it's not selling... actually
it might be selling good... and then this [the WGC tour] unfolded and it's so
great and I started thinking: "I'd really like to be on the road more', but
you never know what opportunities are gonna come, so I guess I'll just have to
stay open minded and just try to connect with people I meet on the road and
see if other things can come from it."
Copyright © 2000 Carsten Wohlfeld
(*) I had asked her to sign my copy of that album...
SAINT LOW INTERVIEW
That uncorrupted beautiful voice that has saved many a sensitive soul from falling into despair.
A songwriter with a special intuitive connection to the melancholic side of life. An endless
creative spirit. A strong but sensitive person who will never give up on the things she loves.
A very real source of inspiration to those struggling to make their talents to leap the hurdles
of indifference. All these things are of true of Mary Lorson and so much more.
This is why Mary had to do more than just Madder Rose. She had to rein in all her talents to
pursue something exclusively of her own vision. That vision is Saint Low, Mary's new band.
Saint Low allows Mary to express her own personal creative ambitions. Saint Low expand on the
template of Madder Rose. Switching the rock band for the baroque band, the blues band, the
Motown band, the chamber pop band and the strictly Mary band.
How have things been since the release of last year's Madder Rose album? Were you a little
disheartened when it didn't receive as much attention as you had hoped for?
Yes, we were a little disheartened by the lack of response to 'Hello June Fool.' We really liked
that record and were proud of it, but we're grown-ups and have certainly dealt with rejection
by the public before so we just soldiered on, had planned on it, actually. So I went straight
into action on Saint Low.
Stepping out on your own as a solo artist, why did you opt to trade under the name of Saint
Low instead of just Mary Lorson? Where did the name come from anyway?
The reason I didn't want to go on as Mary Lorson is that despite the fact that it will be
marketed that way, it's not really a solo project. Yes, I'm the "boss" and songwriter, but I
have a great band that has helped me to really bring these songs to fruition. I'm to Saint Low
what Billy is to Madder Rose, the visionary, the creative manager, the President, but it would
be nowhere near as good with a different complement of musicians. I really lucked out in
finding the band members I did for Saint Low. Plus there's something so precious and predictable
about the "lead singer's solo project" phase of everybody's career. I'm busting my ass to make
Saint Low happen. It's a band, a creative project.
Was it a daunting and stressful experience taking the leading role in making an album?
Yes, it was daunting and stressful to take over but also very liberating. Having been a support
player for all these years, watching from the sidelines as decisions were made, I was itching
to be the one at the helm.
Are the songs all brand new or are they songs you've stocked up over years that didn't seem to
fit in with Madder Rose?
Some of the songs are new, some are old. I write all the time and just picked the ones that
sounded best when the opportunity came to record.
I've often get the feeling that your songs are far more complex and more oblique than Billy's,
does Saint Low reflect this more?
Saint Low obviously reflects my own personal taste and bent in songwriting. I don't know how
I'd describe it in relation to Billy's taste and talent; I can only say that these songs are
true to me, they're my voice and my ideas and my writing...it's always been weird for me that
people thought I wrote all of Madder Rose's songs...
When it came to recording the album what overall feel were you aiming for?
In terms of the overall feel of the album, I wanted something like a modern take on vintage
sounds and grooves...melancholy but not saccharine, smart but not too smart.... musical, above
all, playful with the music but also really worked-out.
Who did you draft into help you record the album? Was it a conscious decision to have more
diverse instrumentation?
The question about recording and instrumentation is kind of answered in my explanation of the
band. Saint Low the band is peopled by Mike Stark on keyboards, Stahl Caso on bass, Zaun
Marshburn on drums, Joe Myer on violin, and me. When she can, Jennie Stearns sings backup live
and she sang on three songs on the album; ditto Uniit Carruyo. I had great guests on the
record: cellist Hank Roberts on a few songs, Richie Stearns on a few, Chris Gray on a few, and
of course the inimitable Billy Coté makes a guitar appearance and made up some samples.
I knew what sounds I wanted where and I knew where to get them - I was very very lucky that so
many talented people were willing to work with me.
You once said the opening track on the album, 'Anywhere' is about the dangers of falling in
love. Why do you think love can be a destructive emotion?
Well, love can be destructive, but that's not what I was thinking about. I was thinking about
how dangerous it is when one person loves more than the other: it's a road to unhappiness. And
it seems that in almost every relationship there's one person who loves more. I've been that
person a lot, so I've learned to become a little bit harder. Please don't say you'll never go
away.... because I know that would be a lie....
"The heart it needs its fuel but it isn't for the weak."
'Anywhere' (1998)
'Johnson City' appears to be the story of two lovers embroiled in something illegal, maybe
drug trafficking, am I close to the truth? What is the tale behind the song? What is the most
dangerous situation you've ever put yourself in?
I'll try to answer in an oblique way. This will also answer the question about where the
moniker Saint Low came from. If sinners are high, then saints are low.... 'Johnson City' is
about the consequences of really fucking up, after one's gotten caught and is made to pay the
price. I don't really want to get too into this subject because it's the same story we've heard
a million times about a million stupid musicians, and also because since the episode is past
and everyone's fine there's no reason to risk my family having to deal with it.
"I'll never do something that stupid again, I'll never go back there alone."
'Johnson City' (2000)
Since you moved out of New York City a few years back, how has your life changed? Has a
different environment affected your songwriting?
Since I moved away from NYC my life has really blossomed into the experience I always wanted it
to be; not easy, necessarily, but with room to appreciate the simple things that are accessible
to everyone, nature, work, animals, beauty...I work really much harder on my arts here because
I can afford the space and because the surrounding beauty really sustains me through being
broke most of the time. I don't know what will happen, but I'm doing things I've always wanted
to do: making my own record, writing, making a film. Moving here was definitely the right
thing to do.
"Say that you accept life, except that life just keeps on being itself."
'Crash' (2000)
'Crash' seems to address anxiety and fear, am I right?
My songs are usually about two or three things at a time, so 'Crash' is about anxiety, but it's
also about worrying about a friend who's got a repeating pattern and for whom a certain kind of
happiness is elusive. 'Crash' is about risk and danger and how selfish it is to think that you
can wreck yourself when there are people out there who love you and would have to live with it
if you really messed yourself up.
'A Thing or Two' seems to be about loneliness. Do you think being with someone you are
unhappy with is better than being with nobody?
'A Thing or Two' is about unreasonable people who have control over you, written refracted
through two very primal relationships in my life; same feeling, two different relationships to
provide the illustrative details. I do think it's better to be alone than in an unhappy
relationship but it takes such strength to love life alone. I'm only just now getting the
maturity and self-love that that would require; fortunately I have a good relationship but if
it ever wasn't, I could live with myself.
'Walk On By' is my favourite track from the album. What influenced that?
That song has a long story. Back in '97 when we were still on Atlantic we submitted a record to
them and the report back was "I don't hear a single," meaning go back and write something
catchier, more sellable....blah blah....that first lyric line and bass line just came out
together. But I kind of hate songs about the music business so I let it go until last winter,
when my next door neighbour was away and needed me to water her plants. I'd go over, water her
plants and play her piano, and one day I remembered that line and started to fool around with
it and write 'Walk On By,' which was about a rough experience...can I explain this briefly?
I'll try: my parents split up when I was 2; my father then married a woman who refused to
recognise me, yet for some reason they insisted on living in the same small town as us and
having five kids who would attend the same schools I did. My father would take me out for
extravagant lunches about once every other year, and promise me all kinds of things. But
evidently these lunches were clandestine; his wife had "forbidden" him to see me, and he
obeyed, but I didn't know this.
"You can just walk on by, you can pretend that I am no-one."
'Walk On By' (2000)
The policy was communicated to me in the following way: not long after one of our lunch dates,
I was walking to the corner store with my best friend and saw my father walking with two little
adorable kids. I was about 12 or 13. I said to my friend, "there's my father!" and ran up to
greet him, but since his kids didn't know I existed, he ignored me and, well, walked right on
by. Needless to say, it sucked. So this story integrated itself into my personal history but
I never really looked at it analytically, until one quiet day at my neighbour's house, when I
realized that I was writing about that experience and started to remember it and realize how
it had affected me and my relationships to people.
I think I do kind of feel like a child in life, like someone to whom people I love can do
whatever they want, like someone who doesn't get sick of the simplest joys... it's kind of a
handicap. My parents were alcoholics and my sisters were unhappy and I really loved them all
and was ready and waiting all through my childhood for them to wake up and start loving me back.
In adult relationships I tend to give my heart away very easily and for good before finding out
if the other person is feeling that way....this has caused a lot of trouble for me! But I've
learned a lot and don't let the same kinds of abuse happen. In a way I don't think that
innocence and willingness to love is wrong; it's just that you need to guard it because if you
get hurt too many times you'll be anything BUT willing to love and that's so important to have
to sustain you through life. I've gotten much better at defending my heart and integrity.
Oh yeah: songwriting - yes, it affects my songwriting. You're a writer, you know that your
whole life affects your writing. Your mind accesses certain experiences when it wants them.
But I don't consciously draw on my childhood for material; it's just there. I've been enjoying
songwriting a lot lately because it feels like a free place, where it's okay to be
impressionistic about the past and present and future, which are all just imagined.
I didn't intend to be a sobsister about anything. I get along well with my dad now; he's
apologized and his wife is nice to me and I didn't write the song to get back at them. It's
just that it really happened and had an astonishing affect on me and I guess I needed to
understand it better.
'After The Fall' is quite an epic closing song. What is the sentiment of that song?
'After The Fall' basically says, I've sunk as low as possible and I still love life/You've sunk
pretty low and I still love you.
I particularly enjoy the extended outro to that track. What effect were you going for?
The end bit was inspired a lot by the Lilys, definitely Yo La Tengo, whom you know I love,
and maybe Spiritualized a bit. I wanted a big kiss at the end. It's the big kiss goodbye.
How have things transferred to the live arena? Is it a more intense naked experience or are
you used to being the centre of attention on stage?
Live, Saint Low is going really well - our arrangements are in a good place, where the writing
is in place but there's a lot of space for people to play in (I'm not sure the jazz guys feel
that way, but they're playing great, so I hope so). It's not more naked necessarily - it's lush
and lyrical. Of course I'm talking about the band, who won't be with me on this first trip
over. I'm hoping fervently that this record will do at least well enough to be convince the
label to pay for bringing the band over, the band is something I really am proud of. I'll be
playing solo on this coming press trip, which I don't like but I'll do it because I want to
be a good girl and promote my record. But the band is where it's really happening for me,
where Saint Low as a musical project is realized.
How does the songwriting process work for you? Do you have a set approach or does it
happen by happy accident?
My songwriting process is different every time. I fool around on drums, piano, or guitar,
record little snips that I like, then see if they inspire a melody (a lot of the SL songs
started with bass lines on guitar and then a melody followed). I just play around and see
what I like.
If you hadn't been making music all these years what you think would be your other creative
outlet?
When I'm not making music, I'm writing. I started that at about the same time that I started
playing music (around 9 or 10) and have just kept up at it. When Madder Rose got going I let
it slide a bit but I've been back at it diligently for the last five years. I was a film
student at school; I've written a couple of feature scripts and I am actually directing a short
film that I wrote. (It'll be shot in a couple of weeks). I probably shoot myself in the foot
by being such a dilettante, but I can't help it. I like all this stuff and am inspired by
people whose creativity can employ different forms.
Where next for Saint Low and Madder Rose?
Next for Saint Low is to pray that people like it enough to bring the band to England. Next
for Madder Rose is film music. We just scored a film (Billy and me) - a short student film but
it was fun and we want to do more of it.
(c) 2000 Adrian Pannett. This interview originally appeared in Under The Surface #4.
Used by permission.
